On Friday, 4/15/16, The People, LLC sent an email regarding BESE's new policy requiring a FAFSA/LOSFA application for graduation to BESE Chair Jim Garvey and copied it to all BESE members, all legislators, and Attorney General Jeff Landry.
On 4/16/16, we received the following response from Kathy Edmonston of BESE: "Thank you for bringing this to our attention."
On 4/18/16, we received an email from Jim Garvey and a response to Jim from Kathy Edmonston.
Please, take a few minutes to digest Jim Garvey's email to us, Kathy Edmonston's reply to him, and our response to the both of them:
On 4/16/16, we received the following response from Kathy Edmonston of BESE: "Thank you for bringing this to our attention."
On 4/18/16, we received an email from Jim Garvey and a response to Jim from Kathy Edmonston.
Please, take a few minutes to digest Jim Garvey's email to us, Kathy Edmonston's reply to him, and our response to the both of them:
Kathy Edmonston to Jim Garvey:
"jim
thank you for asking these questions! i am somewhat confused as well. kathy"
"jim
thank you for asking these questions! i am somewhat confused as well. kathy"
Jim Garvey's email to us:
"Angela
Karen
Could you help me? Do you have a copy of the NOI that was issued on this change to Bulletin 741 that you can send to me?
Also, I briefly looked through Bulletin 741 and I can not find anything that says that graduation requirements can only be listed in Section 2318-C. Can you point me to the language that says that graduation requirements can only be listed in Section 2318-C and that any requirements that are listed in any other section are null? Along those lines, I believe that Section 2318-c only lists the requirements for a Tops Diploma, and we now also have a Jump Start Diploma (I'm not sure if that is the official name that is used in Bulletin 741, I have not had a chance to look it up). pathway which has different graduation requirements from those that are required for the Tops Diploma. Can you tell me if the Jump Start Diploma requirements are listed in 2318-C (I did not see them in there). And, if they are not in that section and are instead listed in another section, can you tell me if you are of the opinion that the Jump Start Diploma is invalid? Also along similar lines, do you know if the Tops Tech requirements are listed in Section 2318-C, or are they listed somewhere else?
I apologize if the next 3 points sound over simplified, but I am genuinely confused regarding your positions. I admit in advance that I could easily be missing your point.
Can you tell me how having a parent sign a waiver (stating that the parent does not want to complete either an application for a TOPS award or an application for Federal Student Aid) would violate Act 837 of 2014? I don't think that such waivers would require the collection of a family's income or the collection of a social security number. And, if the waiver does not collect that information, then it seems that there would be no violation of Act 837's prohibition against collecting that information.
Can you tell me (if a parent does not want to complete an application for Federal Student Aid) how would having such a parent sign a waiver end up facilitating predatory lending? Similarly, if a parent were to chose to complete an application for a TOPS award, how would that end up facilitating predatory lending?
Considering that under this policy if a parent does not want to "apply for government welfare", they can simply sign a waiver, can you tell me how this policy would require parents/students to apply for government welfare "as a requirement for" receiving a diploma?
Finally, isn't there a mechanism in the Administrative Procedures Act that allows for private citizens to trigger a public hearing for any amendment to Bulletin 741 by filing a related complaint or request with the BESE office during the official waiting period, thereby allowing the private citizens to give their public statements regarding the amendments? I believe that the official waiting period was designed with that mechanism in mind. And, I think that we had such a public comment meeting on another amendment to Bulletin 741 at some point at least once within the last 2 or 3 years. Maybe that would be a good route for putting these issues into the record.
Jim Garvey
Hailey, McNamara, Hall, Larmann & Papale, L.L.P."
"Angela
Karen
Could you help me? Do you have a copy of the NOI that was issued on this change to Bulletin 741 that you can send to me?
Also, I briefly looked through Bulletin 741 and I can not find anything that says that graduation requirements can only be listed in Section 2318-C. Can you point me to the language that says that graduation requirements can only be listed in Section 2318-C and that any requirements that are listed in any other section are null? Along those lines, I believe that Section 2318-c only lists the requirements for a Tops Diploma, and we now also have a Jump Start Diploma (I'm not sure if that is the official name that is used in Bulletin 741, I have not had a chance to look it up). pathway which has different graduation requirements from those that are required for the Tops Diploma. Can you tell me if the Jump Start Diploma requirements are listed in 2318-C (I did not see them in there). And, if they are not in that section and are instead listed in another section, can you tell me if you are of the opinion that the Jump Start Diploma is invalid? Also along similar lines, do you know if the Tops Tech requirements are listed in Section 2318-C, or are they listed somewhere else?
I apologize if the next 3 points sound over simplified, but I am genuinely confused regarding your positions. I admit in advance that I could easily be missing your point.
Can you tell me how having a parent sign a waiver (stating that the parent does not want to complete either an application for a TOPS award or an application for Federal Student Aid) would violate Act 837 of 2014? I don't think that such waivers would require the collection of a family's income or the collection of a social security number. And, if the waiver does not collect that information, then it seems that there would be no violation of Act 837's prohibition against collecting that information.
Can you tell me (if a parent does not want to complete an application for Federal Student Aid) how would having such a parent sign a waiver end up facilitating predatory lending? Similarly, if a parent were to chose to complete an application for a TOPS award, how would that end up facilitating predatory lending?
Considering that under this policy if a parent does not want to "apply for government welfare", they can simply sign a waiver, can you tell me how this policy would require parents/students to apply for government welfare "as a requirement for" receiving a diploma?
Finally, isn't there a mechanism in the Administrative Procedures Act that allows for private citizens to trigger a public hearing for any amendment to Bulletin 741 by filing a related complaint or request with the BESE office during the official waiting period, thereby allowing the private citizens to give their public statements regarding the amendments? I believe that the official waiting period was designed with that mechanism in mind. And, I think that we had such a public comment meeting on another amendment to Bulletin 741 at some point at least once within the last 2 or 3 years. Maybe that would be a good route for putting these issues into the record.
Jim Garvey
Hailey, McNamara, Hall, Larmann & Papale, L.L.P."
Our Response to Jim and Kathy:
Dear Jim and Kathy,
This is a very serious matter to many students and their parents across Louisiana; therefore, we will attempt to clear up your confusion in the order in which you express it in Jim's email:
1. “Could you help me?”
Well, we were hoping that any of the board members could be helpful to us; but, if neither of you have access to a secretary, BESE staff, an Executive Director for your board, or other board members who can help you with this, we are happy to offer our assistance.
2. “Do you have a copy of the NOI that was issued on this change to Bulletin 741 that you can send to me?”
Here is a screenshot that may be helpful to the both of you; however, if you ever need to see any other NOIs at anytime, you can find them on your BESE website in the link to your rulemaking docket. (http://bese.louisiana.gov/documents-resources/rulemaking-docket )
Dear Jim and Kathy,
This is a very serious matter to many students and their parents across Louisiana; therefore, we will attempt to clear up your confusion in the order in which you express it in Jim's email:
1. “Could you help me?”
Well, we were hoping that any of the board members could be helpful to us; but, if neither of you have access to a secretary, BESE staff, an Executive Director for your board, or other board members who can help you with this, we are happy to offer our assistance.
2. “Do you have a copy of the NOI that was issued on this change to Bulletin 741 that you can send to me?”
Here is a screenshot that may be helpful to the both of you; however, if you ever need to see any other NOIs at anytime, you can find them on your BESE website in the link to your rulemaking docket. (http://bese.louisiana.gov/documents-resources/rulemaking-docket )
3. “Also, I briefly looked through Bulletin 741 and I can not find anything that says that graduation requirements can only be listed in Section 2318-C. Can you point me to the language that says that graduation requirements can only be listed in Section 2318-C and that any requirements that are listed in any other section are null?”
Jim & Kathy, we are afraid that you cannot find such language in Bulletin 741. The language for which you are searching is actually found within the Administrative Code. The Administrative Code is a particular body of law that state agencies, such as yours, must follow in constructing a bulletin such as 741. The link to the various Chapters of the Administrative Code can be found at http://www.doa.la.gov/Pages/osr/lac/books.aspx . Click on Title 1 to find the information for which you are currently looking.
Specifically, within Title 1 of the Code, if you look under Chapter 1, you will find Section 107 which explains that all sections will have a heading. While the heading is not to be used in the interpretation of the law, the heading is an explanation of what is in that section. This way, citizens can find “Graduation Requirements”, for example, without worrying that additional requirements might be hidden in some unrelated section, like…say…”Scheduling.”
4. “Along those lines, I believe that Section 2318-c only lists the requirements for a Tops Diploma, and we now also have a Jump Start Diploma (I'm not sure if that is the official name that is used in Bulletin 741, I have not had a chance to look it up). pathway which has different graduation requirements from those that are required for the Tops Diploma. Can you tell me if the Jump Start Diploma requirements are listed in 2318-C (I did not see them in there). And, if they are not in that section and are instead listed in another section, can you tell me if you are of the opinion that the Jump Start Diploma is invalid? Also along similar lines, do you know if the Tops Tech requirements are listed in Section 2318-C, or are they listed somewhere else?”
Jim and Kathy, we can certainly understand your confusion. It appears that you misread this particular line from our email:
"’Minimum high school graduation requirements’ are found in Bulletin 741 beginning at section 2318 (C) for the various diploma options.”
We put in bold and italics the parts that it appears you overlooked. Restated, perhaps more simply: if you start reading at section 2318(c) of Bulletin 741 and just keep on reading, you will see the minimum high school graduation requirements for the various diploma options which include those that you mentioned.
5. “I apologize if the next 3 points sound over simplified, but I am genuinely confused regarding your positions. I admit in advance that I could easily be missing your point.
Can you tell me how having a parent sign a waiver (stating that the parent does not want to complete either an application for a TOPS award or an application for Federal Student Aid) would violate Act 837 of 2014? I don't think that such waivers would require the collection of a family's income or the collection of a social security number. And, if the waiver does not collect that information, then it seems that there would be no violation of Act 837's prohibition against collecting that information.
Can you tell me (if a parent does not want to complete an application for Federal Student Aid) how would having such a parent sign a waiver end up facilitating predatory lending? Similarly, if a parent were to chose to complete an application for a TOPS award, how would that end up facilitating predatory lending?
Considering that under this policy if a parent does not want to "apply for government welfare", they can simply sign a waiver, can you tell me how this policy would require parents/students to apply for government welfare "as a requirement for" receiving a diploma?”
No need to apologize, Jim and Kathy; but now, we’re a little confused:
Are you stating that BESE is not making it a requirement in order to graduate that a student must complete the FAFSA application? What, then, is the requirement with this new rule? Is it that a parent or student must sign a form stating that he will not complete the FAFSA application? Isn’t that a bit redundant? The act of dissension occurs naturally whenever parents and students simply do not fill out the application. You can’t force someone to sign that he does not agree. Either he agrees and completes the form or he does not agree and the form is not completed. Jim, please tell us that, as an attorney, you are not in the practice of chasing down every person that does not have a contract with you to ask them to sign a form stating that they do not.
Certainly, we can all agree that tasking any government official or employee with actively tracking down citizens simply to make them sign a form stating that they do not wish to participate in a government welfare program is a waste of resources--especially given that our state faces a budget shortfall for which taxpayers are having to pickup the bill.
So, the real questions you two should be asking are the same ones about which many citizens find themselves scratching their heads: What is the plan, then, if a parent refuses to complete the application and to sign your form? Will those students not be allowed to graduate?
6. "Can you tell me (if a parent does not want to complete an application for Federal Student Aid) how would having such a parent sign a waiver end up facilitating predatory lending? Similarly, if a parent were to chose to complete an application for a TOPS award, how would that end up facilitating predatory lending?"
We are painfully aware of the fact that neither of you have answered our questions regarding Supt. White's statement that money is being "left on the table." So, we pose this question once again: What Money?
Since the state is broke and TOPS appears to be earmarked for cuts, we are left with federal student loans to consider. Since the student loan "industry" amounts to over 1 TRILLION DOLLARS; and, since LOSFA and the universities will receive money from those loans, we believe that the term "predatory" actually does apply here; and, waiver or no waiver, the requirement attached to graduation seems to qualify BESE's actions.
7. “Finally, isn't there a mechanism in the Administrative Procedures Act that allows for private citizens to trigger a public hearing for any amendment to Bulletin 741 by filing a related complaint or request with the BESE office during the official waiting period, thereby allowing the private citizens to give their public statements regarding the amendments? I believe that the official waiting period was designed with that mechanism in mind. And, I think that we had such a public comment meeting on another amendment to Bulletin 741 at some point at least once within the last 2 or 3 years. Maybe that would be a good route for putting these issues into the record.”
Yes, Jim and Kathy, there most definitely is such a mechanism. Unfortunately, our work schedules do not always allow us to digest and respond to actions of your board within the assigned public comment period. Luckily, however, there is no statute of limitations on citizens pointing out when we believe our state agencies are acting in violation of the law and outside of the authority delegated to them by the people.
Angela & Karen
The People, LLC
Jim & Kathy, we are afraid that you cannot find such language in Bulletin 741. The language for which you are searching is actually found within the Administrative Code. The Administrative Code is a particular body of law that state agencies, such as yours, must follow in constructing a bulletin such as 741. The link to the various Chapters of the Administrative Code can be found at http://www.doa.la.gov/Pages/osr/lac/books.aspx . Click on Title 1 to find the information for which you are currently looking.
Specifically, within Title 1 of the Code, if you look under Chapter 1, you will find Section 107 which explains that all sections will have a heading. While the heading is not to be used in the interpretation of the law, the heading is an explanation of what is in that section. This way, citizens can find “Graduation Requirements”, for example, without worrying that additional requirements might be hidden in some unrelated section, like…say…”Scheduling.”
4. “Along those lines, I believe that Section 2318-c only lists the requirements for a Tops Diploma, and we now also have a Jump Start Diploma (I'm not sure if that is the official name that is used in Bulletin 741, I have not had a chance to look it up). pathway which has different graduation requirements from those that are required for the Tops Diploma. Can you tell me if the Jump Start Diploma requirements are listed in 2318-C (I did not see them in there). And, if they are not in that section and are instead listed in another section, can you tell me if you are of the opinion that the Jump Start Diploma is invalid? Also along similar lines, do you know if the Tops Tech requirements are listed in Section 2318-C, or are they listed somewhere else?”
Jim and Kathy, we can certainly understand your confusion. It appears that you misread this particular line from our email:
"’Minimum high school graduation requirements’ are found in Bulletin 741 beginning at section 2318 (C) for the various diploma options.”
We put in bold and italics the parts that it appears you overlooked. Restated, perhaps more simply: if you start reading at section 2318(c) of Bulletin 741 and just keep on reading, you will see the minimum high school graduation requirements for the various diploma options which include those that you mentioned.
5. “I apologize if the next 3 points sound over simplified, but I am genuinely confused regarding your positions. I admit in advance that I could easily be missing your point.
Can you tell me how having a parent sign a waiver (stating that the parent does not want to complete either an application for a TOPS award or an application for Federal Student Aid) would violate Act 837 of 2014? I don't think that such waivers would require the collection of a family's income or the collection of a social security number. And, if the waiver does not collect that information, then it seems that there would be no violation of Act 837's prohibition against collecting that information.
Can you tell me (if a parent does not want to complete an application for Federal Student Aid) how would having such a parent sign a waiver end up facilitating predatory lending? Similarly, if a parent were to chose to complete an application for a TOPS award, how would that end up facilitating predatory lending?
Considering that under this policy if a parent does not want to "apply for government welfare", they can simply sign a waiver, can you tell me how this policy would require parents/students to apply for government welfare "as a requirement for" receiving a diploma?”
No need to apologize, Jim and Kathy; but now, we’re a little confused:
Are you stating that BESE is not making it a requirement in order to graduate that a student must complete the FAFSA application? What, then, is the requirement with this new rule? Is it that a parent or student must sign a form stating that he will not complete the FAFSA application? Isn’t that a bit redundant? The act of dissension occurs naturally whenever parents and students simply do not fill out the application. You can’t force someone to sign that he does not agree. Either he agrees and completes the form or he does not agree and the form is not completed. Jim, please tell us that, as an attorney, you are not in the practice of chasing down every person that does not have a contract with you to ask them to sign a form stating that they do not.
Certainly, we can all agree that tasking any government official or employee with actively tracking down citizens simply to make them sign a form stating that they do not wish to participate in a government welfare program is a waste of resources--especially given that our state faces a budget shortfall for which taxpayers are having to pickup the bill.
So, the real questions you two should be asking are the same ones about which many citizens find themselves scratching their heads: What is the plan, then, if a parent refuses to complete the application and to sign your form? Will those students not be allowed to graduate?
6. "Can you tell me (if a parent does not want to complete an application for Federal Student Aid) how would having such a parent sign a waiver end up facilitating predatory lending? Similarly, if a parent were to chose to complete an application for a TOPS award, how would that end up facilitating predatory lending?"
We are painfully aware of the fact that neither of you have answered our questions regarding Supt. White's statement that money is being "left on the table." So, we pose this question once again: What Money?
Since the state is broke and TOPS appears to be earmarked for cuts, we are left with federal student loans to consider. Since the student loan "industry" amounts to over 1 TRILLION DOLLARS; and, since LOSFA and the universities will receive money from those loans, we believe that the term "predatory" actually does apply here; and, waiver or no waiver, the requirement attached to graduation seems to qualify BESE's actions.
7. “Finally, isn't there a mechanism in the Administrative Procedures Act that allows for private citizens to trigger a public hearing for any amendment to Bulletin 741 by filing a related complaint or request with the BESE office during the official waiting period, thereby allowing the private citizens to give their public statements regarding the amendments? I believe that the official waiting period was designed with that mechanism in mind. And, I think that we had such a public comment meeting on another amendment to Bulletin 741 at some point at least once within the last 2 or 3 years. Maybe that would be a good route for putting these issues into the record.”
Yes, Jim and Kathy, there most definitely is such a mechanism. Unfortunately, our work schedules do not always allow us to digest and respond to actions of your board within the assigned public comment period. Luckily, however, there is no statute of limitations on citizens pointing out when we believe our state agencies are acting in violation of the law and outside of the authority delegated to them by the people.
Angela & Karen
The People, LLC