On April 19th, we posted our responses to Jim Garvey & Kathy Edmonston's questions which they asked in an email response to our request that BESE reverse its decision to require that students/parents complete a FAFSA or LOSFA application or else sign a waiver in order to graduate.
We have since received an email from Mr. Garvey in which he responded to the answers that we had provided to him and Kathy Edmonston. We have posted his latest comments in red below our responses to each of his previous questions...we figured that's the color you'll be seeing anyway as you read his incredible, verbatim responses. [Our thoughts are in purple.]
1. “Could you help me?”
Well, we were hoping that any of the board members could be helpful to us; but, if neither of you have access to a secretary, BESE staff, an Executive Director for your board, or other board members who can help you with this, we are happy to offer our assistance.
"Thanks for the help. As you guessed correctly, individual BESE members do not have secretaries or other paid staff to help us as individuals. There is a BESE Exec Dir, and there are BESE staff members, but they are not obligated to offer help, particularly to any individual BESE member, unless they are directed to do so by a majority vote of the BESE membership at an official BESE meeting."
[This is BESE business--not the personal business of Jim Garvey and Kathy Edmonston. Why are taxpayers funding a staff for BESE if they are not obligated to help BESE?]
2. “Do you have a copy of the NOI that was issued on this change to Bulletin 741 that you can send to me?”
Here is a screenshot that may be helpful to the both of you; however, if you ever need to see any other NOIs at anytime, you can find them on your BESE website in the link to your rulemaking docket. (http://bese.louisiana.gov/documents-resources/rulemaking-docket )
"In any event, attached is a copy of the NOI and the section in the BESE policy into which it is being inserted (17:901)."
[So, he did have a copy of the NOI after all...]
We have since received an email from Mr. Garvey in which he responded to the answers that we had provided to him and Kathy Edmonston. We have posted his latest comments in red below our responses to each of his previous questions...we figured that's the color you'll be seeing anyway as you read his incredible, verbatim responses. [Our thoughts are in purple.]
1. “Could you help me?”
Well, we were hoping that any of the board members could be helpful to us; but, if neither of you have access to a secretary, BESE staff, an Executive Director for your board, or other board members who can help you with this, we are happy to offer our assistance.
"Thanks for the help. As you guessed correctly, individual BESE members do not have secretaries or other paid staff to help us as individuals. There is a BESE Exec Dir, and there are BESE staff members, but they are not obligated to offer help, particularly to any individual BESE member, unless they are directed to do so by a majority vote of the BESE membership at an official BESE meeting."
[This is BESE business--not the personal business of Jim Garvey and Kathy Edmonston. Why are taxpayers funding a staff for BESE if they are not obligated to help BESE?]
2. “Do you have a copy of the NOI that was issued on this change to Bulletin 741 that you can send to me?”
Here is a screenshot that may be helpful to the both of you; however, if you ever need to see any other NOIs at anytime, you can find them on your BESE website in the link to your rulemaking docket. (http://bese.louisiana.gov/documents-resources/rulemaking-docket )
"In any event, attached is a copy of the NOI and the section in the BESE policy into which it is being inserted (17:901)."
[So, he did have a copy of the NOI after all...]
3. “Also, I briefly looked through Bulletin 741 and I can not find anything that says that graduation requirements can only be listed in Section 2318-C. Can you point me to the language that says that graduation requirements can only be listed in Section 2318-C and that any requirements that are listed in any other section are null?”
Jim & Kathy, we are afraid that you cannot find such language in Bulletin 741. The language for which you are searching is actually found within the Administrative Code. The Administrative Code is a particular body of law that state agencies, such as yours, must follow in constructing a bulletin such as 741. The link to the various Chapters of the Administrative Code can be found at http://www.doa.la.gov/Pages/osr/lac/books.aspx . Click on Title 1 to find the information for which you are currently looking.
Specifically, within Title 1 of the Code, if you look under Chapter 1, you will find Section 107 which explains that all sections will have a heading. While the heading is not to be used in the interpretation of the law, the heading is an explanation of what is in that section. This way, citizens can find “Graduation Requirements”, for example, without worrying that additional requirements might be hidden in some unrelated section, like…say…”Scheduling.”
"Section 107 explains that headings/titles to sections are not used in the interpretation of the law. That means that if there is a section that is titled "Graduation Requirements", there is no requirement that all of the graduation requirements need to be listed in that section. Concurrently, it also means that graduation requirements that are listed in a section other than the one that is titled "Graduation Requirements" are just as valid as those that are listed in that section."
[Why wouldn't BESE want all of the requirements to be listed in one section? Is BESE intentionally trying to create confusion?? In spite of all of his goings-on about additional graduation requirements, he failed to name even one.]
4. “Along those lines, I believe that Section 2318-c only lists the requirements for a Tops Diploma, and we now also have a Jump Start Diploma (I'm not sure if that is the official name that is used in Bulletin 741, I have not had a chance to look it up). pathway which has different graduation requirements from those that are required for the Tops Diploma. Can you tell me if the Jump Start Diploma requirements are listed in 2318-C (I did not see them in there). And, if they are not in that section and are instead listed in another section, can you tell me if you are of the opinion that the Jump Start Diploma is invalid? Also along similar lines, do you know if the Tops Tech requirements are listed in Section 2318-C, or are they listed somewhere else?”
Jim and Kathy, we can certainly understand your confusion. It appears that you misread this particular line from our email:
"’Minimum high school graduation requirements’ are found in Bulletin 741 beginning at section 2318 (C) for the various diploma options.”
We put in bold and italics the parts that it appears you overlooked. Restated, perhaps more simply: if you start reading at section 2318(c) of Bulletin 741 and just keep on reading, you will see the minimum high school graduation requirements for the various diploma options which include those that you mentioned.
[Jim had nothing to say here.]
5. “I apologize if the next 3 points sound over simplified, but I am genuinely confused regarding your positions. I admit in advance that I could easily be missing your point.
Can you tell me how having a parent sign a waiver (stating that the parent does not want to complete either an application for a TOPS award or an application for Federal Student Aid) would violate Act 837 of 2014? I don't think that such waivers would require the collection of a family's income or the collection of a social security number. And, if the waiver does not collect that information, then it seems that there would be no violation of Act 837's prohibition against collecting that information.
Can you tell me (if a parent does not want to complete an application for Federal Student Aid) how would having such a parent sign a waiver end up facilitating predatory lending? Similarly, if a parent were to chose to complete an application for a TOPS award, how would that end up facilitating predatory lending?
Considering that under this policy if a parent does not want to "apply for government welfare", they can simply sign a waiver, can you tell me how this policy would require parents/students to apply for government welfare "as a requirement for" receiving a diploma?”
No need to apologize, Jim and Kathy; but now, we’re a little confused:
Are you stating that BESE is not making it a requirement in order to graduate that a student must complete the FAFSA application? What, then, is the requirement with this new rule? Is it that a parent or student must sign a form stating that he will not complete the FAFSA application? Isn’t that a bit redundant? The act of dissension occurs naturally whenever parents and students simply do not fill out the application. You can’t force someone to sign that he does not agree. Either he agrees and completes the form or he does not agree and the form is not completed. Jim, please tell us that, as an attorney, you are not in the practice of chasing down every person that does not have a contract with you to ask them to sign a form stating that they do not.
"And, it might be helpful to think of the waiver not so much of an act of dissension, but more of an indication that the high school staff has made the parent aware of the option of financial aid that is available for the parent in case the parent were interested in such.
You are right, I am not in a practice of chasing down people with whom I do not have contracts, that is, unless I have a fiduciary duty to provide those people with information, because of some past or present relationship that I have with them. Along those lines, the high schools do have a relationship with the students and their parents and that relationship does bring with it certain fiduciary duties, many, or most, or all of which duties are listed all through out the BESE code and state statute. On this occasion, BESE has decided that one of those fiduciary duties is that schools should make parents and student aware of the financial aid that is available to them for post secondary education. Once the parents are properly aware of that aid, they are free to reject it. But, BESE, as the body that oversees local schools, has a fiduciary duty to make sure that the schools are fulfilling their fiduciary duties by providing that information to the parents (the waiver helps BESE complete that duty)."
[BESE does not have the fiduciary responsibility to ensure that each individual student receives information regarding financial aid. In fact, the LA constitution authorizes that BESE "shall supervise and control the public elementary and secondary schools and special schools under its jurisdiction and shall have budgetary responsibility for all funds appropriated or allocated by the state for those schools." This means that BESE must spend our money responsibly.
We maintain that these BESE members are advocating for the waste of resources, and possibly operating outside of the authority granted by the constitution by attempting to oversee what happens to a student upon the completion of his secondary school education.
Under our system of government, elected officials are responsible to the citizens. Here, BESE is holding the parents and students responsible to BESE and for something that parents and students are not obligated to apply for or receive under any other circumstance.]
Certainly, we can all agree that tasking any government official or employee with actively tracking down citizens simply to make them sign a form stating that they do not wish to participate in a government welfare program is a waste of resources--especially given that our state faces a budget shortfall for which taxpayers are having to pickup the bill.
So, the real questions you two should be asking are the same ones about which many citizens find themselves scratching their heads: What is the plan, then, if a parent refuses to complete the application and to sign your form? Will those students not be allowed to graduate?
"Regarding your question of what would happen if a student's parent does not complete a waiver, BESE included a provision that allows for a school to ask BESE for a waiver in the instance or instances in which a parent refuses to sign such a waiver. That process would allow such a student to graduation."
[So, now it is NOT a requirement and BESE just wants the districts to operate as though it were a requirement???]
6. "Can you tell me (if a parent does not want to complete an application for Federal Student Aid) how would having such a parent sign a waiver end up facilitating predatory lending? Similarly, if a parent were to chose to complete an application for a TOPS award, how would that end up facilitating predatory lending?"
We are painfully aware of the fact that neither of you have answered our questions regarding Supt. White's statement that money is being "left on the table." So, we pose this question once again: What Money?
"Regarding your question about what money is being left on the table, there are several grants (not loans) that a student can qualify for, but only if the students fill out a financial aid request form. The FAFSA/LOFSA form is one such form that lets a student qualify for several different form of financial aid. One example of financial aid, which is not a loan, and does not have a repayment provision, are the Pell Grants. Louisiana children are leaving millions of dollars in Pell Grants on the table simply because they do/did not know that the grants exist or that they could take a step towards qualifying for those grants by filling out a FAFSA/LOFSA form."
["While the Pell Grant offers a definite leg up for low income students, it can not cover their total education costs. Most college bound students will find it necessary to rely on a combination of grants, scholarships and federal and/or private loans to fully cover their college tuition." Students are being lured into the post secondary education loan market with the promise of "free" money. Again, we feel that "predatory" most definitely applies.
Also, if this is about "leaving money on the table," why is this graduation requirement that isn't really a requirement also being demanded of students who will either not be going to college or will not be qualified for the money?]
Since the state is broke and TOPS appears to be earmarked for cuts, we are left with federal student loans to consider. Since the student loan "industry" amounts to over 1 TRILLION DOLLARS; and, since LOSFA and the universities will receive money from those loans, we believe that the term "predatory" actually does apply here; and, waiver or no waiver, the requirement attached to graduation seems to qualify BESE's actions.
7. “Finally, isn't there a mechanism in the Administrative Procedures Act that allows for private citizens to trigger a public hearing for any amendment to Bulletin 741 by filing a related complaint or request with the BESE office during the official waiting period, thereby allowing the private citizens to give their public statements regarding the amendments? I believe that the official waiting period was designed with that mechanism in mind. And, I think that we had such a public comment meeting on another amendment to Bulletin 741 at some point at least once within the last 2 or 3 years. Maybe that would be a good route for putting these issues into the record.”
Yes, Jim and Kathy, there most definitely is such a mechanism. Unfortunately, our work schedules do not always allow us to digest and respond to actions of your board within the assigned public comment period. Luckily, however, there is no statute of limitations on citizens pointing out when we believe our state agencies are acting in violation of the law and outside of the authority delegated to them by the people.
[Jim had nothing to say here.]
Jim & Kathy, we are afraid that you cannot find such language in Bulletin 741. The language for which you are searching is actually found within the Administrative Code. The Administrative Code is a particular body of law that state agencies, such as yours, must follow in constructing a bulletin such as 741. The link to the various Chapters of the Administrative Code can be found at http://www.doa.la.gov/Pages/osr/lac/books.aspx . Click on Title 1 to find the information for which you are currently looking.
Specifically, within Title 1 of the Code, if you look under Chapter 1, you will find Section 107 which explains that all sections will have a heading. While the heading is not to be used in the interpretation of the law, the heading is an explanation of what is in that section. This way, citizens can find “Graduation Requirements”, for example, without worrying that additional requirements might be hidden in some unrelated section, like…say…”Scheduling.”
"Section 107 explains that headings/titles to sections are not used in the interpretation of the law. That means that if there is a section that is titled "Graduation Requirements", there is no requirement that all of the graduation requirements need to be listed in that section. Concurrently, it also means that graduation requirements that are listed in a section other than the one that is titled "Graduation Requirements" are just as valid as those that are listed in that section."
[Why wouldn't BESE want all of the requirements to be listed in one section? Is BESE intentionally trying to create confusion?? In spite of all of his goings-on about additional graduation requirements, he failed to name even one.]
4. “Along those lines, I believe that Section 2318-c only lists the requirements for a Tops Diploma, and we now also have a Jump Start Diploma (I'm not sure if that is the official name that is used in Bulletin 741, I have not had a chance to look it up). pathway which has different graduation requirements from those that are required for the Tops Diploma. Can you tell me if the Jump Start Diploma requirements are listed in 2318-C (I did not see them in there). And, if they are not in that section and are instead listed in another section, can you tell me if you are of the opinion that the Jump Start Diploma is invalid? Also along similar lines, do you know if the Tops Tech requirements are listed in Section 2318-C, or are they listed somewhere else?”
Jim and Kathy, we can certainly understand your confusion. It appears that you misread this particular line from our email:
"’Minimum high school graduation requirements’ are found in Bulletin 741 beginning at section 2318 (C) for the various diploma options.”
We put in bold and italics the parts that it appears you overlooked. Restated, perhaps more simply: if you start reading at section 2318(c) of Bulletin 741 and just keep on reading, you will see the minimum high school graduation requirements for the various diploma options which include those that you mentioned.
[Jim had nothing to say here.]
5. “I apologize if the next 3 points sound over simplified, but I am genuinely confused regarding your positions. I admit in advance that I could easily be missing your point.
Can you tell me how having a parent sign a waiver (stating that the parent does not want to complete either an application for a TOPS award or an application for Federal Student Aid) would violate Act 837 of 2014? I don't think that such waivers would require the collection of a family's income or the collection of a social security number. And, if the waiver does not collect that information, then it seems that there would be no violation of Act 837's prohibition against collecting that information.
Can you tell me (if a parent does not want to complete an application for Federal Student Aid) how would having such a parent sign a waiver end up facilitating predatory lending? Similarly, if a parent were to chose to complete an application for a TOPS award, how would that end up facilitating predatory lending?
Considering that under this policy if a parent does not want to "apply for government welfare", they can simply sign a waiver, can you tell me how this policy would require parents/students to apply for government welfare "as a requirement for" receiving a diploma?”
No need to apologize, Jim and Kathy; but now, we’re a little confused:
Are you stating that BESE is not making it a requirement in order to graduate that a student must complete the FAFSA application? What, then, is the requirement with this new rule? Is it that a parent or student must sign a form stating that he will not complete the FAFSA application? Isn’t that a bit redundant? The act of dissension occurs naturally whenever parents and students simply do not fill out the application. You can’t force someone to sign that he does not agree. Either he agrees and completes the form or he does not agree and the form is not completed. Jim, please tell us that, as an attorney, you are not in the practice of chasing down every person that does not have a contract with you to ask them to sign a form stating that they do not.
"And, it might be helpful to think of the waiver not so much of an act of dissension, but more of an indication that the high school staff has made the parent aware of the option of financial aid that is available for the parent in case the parent were interested in such.
You are right, I am not in a practice of chasing down people with whom I do not have contracts, that is, unless I have a fiduciary duty to provide those people with information, because of some past or present relationship that I have with them. Along those lines, the high schools do have a relationship with the students and their parents and that relationship does bring with it certain fiduciary duties, many, or most, or all of which duties are listed all through out the BESE code and state statute. On this occasion, BESE has decided that one of those fiduciary duties is that schools should make parents and student aware of the financial aid that is available to them for post secondary education. Once the parents are properly aware of that aid, they are free to reject it. But, BESE, as the body that oversees local schools, has a fiduciary duty to make sure that the schools are fulfilling their fiduciary duties by providing that information to the parents (the waiver helps BESE complete that duty)."
[BESE does not have the fiduciary responsibility to ensure that each individual student receives information regarding financial aid. In fact, the LA constitution authorizes that BESE "shall supervise and control the public elementary and secondary schools and special schools under its jurisdiction and shall have budgetary responsibility for all funds appropriated or allocated by the state for those schools." This means that BESE must spend our money responsibly.
We maintain that these BESE members are advocating for the waste of resources, and possibly operating outside of the authority granted by the constitution by attempting to oversee what happens to a student upon the completion of his secondary school education.
Under our system of government, elected officials are responsible to the citizens. Here, BESE is holding the parents and students responsible to BESE and for something that parents and students are not obligated to apply for or receive under any other circumstance.]
Certainly, we can all agree that tasking any government official or employee with actively tracking down citizens simply to make them sign a form stating that they do not wish to participate in a government welfare program is a waste of resources--especially given that our state faces a budget shortfall for which taxpayers are having to pickup the bill.
So, the real questions you two should be asking are the same ones about which many citizens find themselves scratching their heads: What is the plan, then, if a parent refuses to complete the application and to sign your form? Will those students not be allowed to graduate?
"Regarding your question of what would happen if a student's parent does not complete a waiver, BESE included a provision that allows for a school to ask BESE for a waiver in the instance or instances in which a parent refuses to sign such a waiver. That process would allow such a student to graduation."
[So, now it is NOT a requirement and BESE just wants the districts to operate as though it were a requirement???]
6. "Can you tell me (if a parent does not want to complete an application for Federal Student Aid) how would having such a parent sign a waiver end up facilitating predatory lending? Similarly, if a parent were to chose to complete an application for a TOPS award, how would that end up facilitating predatory lending?"
We are painfully aware of the fact that neither of you have answered our questions regarding Supt. White's statement that money is being "left on the table." So, we pose this question once again: What Money?
"Regarding your question about what money is being left on the table, there are several grants (not loans) that a student can qualify for, but only if the students fill out a financial aid request form. The FAFSA/LOFSA form is one such form that lets a student qualify for several different form of financial aid. One example of financial aid, which is not a loan, and does not have a repayment provision, are the Pell Grants. Louisiana children are leaving millions of dollars in Pell Grants on the table simply because they do/did not know that the grants exist or that they could take a step towards qualifying for those grants by filling out a FAFSA/LOFSA form."
["While the Pell Grant offers a definite leg up for low income students, it can not cover their total education costs. Most college bound students will find it necessary to rely on a combination of grants, scholarships and federal and/or private loans to fully cover their college tuition." Students are being lured into the post secondary education loan market with the promise of "free" money. Again, we feel that "predatory" most definitely applies.
Also, if this is about "leaving money on the table," why is this graduation requirement that isn't really a requirement also being demanded of students who will either not be going to college or will not be qualified for the money?]
Since the state is broke and TOPS appears to be earmarked for cuts, we are left with federal student loans to consider. Since the student loan "industry" amounts to over 1 TRILLION DOLLARS; and, since LOSFA and the universities will receive money from those loans, we believe that the term "predatory" actually does apply here; and, waiver or no waiver, the requirement attached to graduation seems to qualify BESE's actions.
7. “Finally, isn't there a mechanism in the Administrative Procedures Act that allows for private citizens to trigger a public hearing for any amendment to Bulletin 741 by filing a related complaint or request with the BESE office during the official waiting period, thereby allowing the private citizens to give their public statements regarding the amendments? I believe that the official waiting period was designed with that mechanism in mind. And, I think that we had such a public comment meeting on another amendment to Bulletin 741 at some point at least once within the last 2 or 3 years. Maybe that would be a good route for putting these issues into the record.”
Yes, Jim and Kathy, there most definitely is such a mechanism. Unfortunately, our work schedules do not always allow us to digest and respond to actions of your board within the assigned public comment period. Luckily, however, there is no statute of limitations on citizens pointing out when we believe our state agencies are acting in violation of the law and outside of the authority delegated to them by the people.
[Jim had nothing to say here.]